A Paragon of Masculinity
This morning my husband started my car by pushing it out of the driveway, rolling it down the hill and popping the clutch. He’s my man. My hero. My knight in shining armor. My Conan.
In a typical week, the manliest thing most husbands or boyfriends get to do is haul the trash to curb. Unless he is an AT gamer. I know it’s all make believe, but watching a man’s mind work, witnessing him crush his enemies, seeing his victory dance – it’s all good. Honestly, I don’t understand why so many men have trouble getting their women to play with them. What woman doesn’t want to spend an evening flirting with a warrior, a Viking, a hunter, a superhero?
Oops, I just remembered. The first game you are supposed teach the little woman is about matching colored cards. W00T look at me. I can count and know all my colors. Yeah, that was impressive back in kindergarten.
I believe that little anonymouse said something about AT games being adolescent. Did this guy turn twenty and exchange his testosterone for a calculator and a minivan? And how does his woman really feel about that?
121 comments:
Burn~!
Did this guy turn twenty and exchange his testosterone for a calculator and a minivan?
She never seems too upset about him while we are in bed.
-M
Hey, I'm a euro fan.
I just moved my GF from Houston to Austin, carrying couches and dressers with just about no help.
Here is what I did last weekend, while you AT'ers were building your Toy Heroscrape Fortress of Solitude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpluJRVkcA
Maybe next weekend I'll be playing a quick game of Samurai, or maybe rock climbing or mountain biking somewhere while you paint your dwarf army for Battlelore.
But believe me, my manhood is intact while still avoiding playing with plastic toy miniatures. :)
Awesome! F:AT's first "My Internet c0ck is bigger than yours!" thread.
;))
We need like a catch-phrase, sitcom style..."CHHHHAAAAPPPELLLLL!", cameras zoom in on someone's frustrated face, horns blaring "Waaah waaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaaah...."
In response to the obvious jab at Lost Cities:
It's not that we want to start gaming with Lost Cities. It seems that for many women, matching colors and counting cards is the most they desire to do or are effective at doing. Some wives would just rather watch American Idol or Flip This House. Some just have the attention span of a fruit fly.
.... It seems that for many women, matching colors and counting cards is the most they desire to do or are effective at doing.... Some just have the attention span of a fruit fly...
So Eurogames are for dimwits with short attention spans or are they just for misogynists?
So Eurogames are for dimwits with short attention spans or are they just for misogynists?
BOTH, Anonymous...get with the program.
I just moved my GF from Houston to Austin, carrying couches and dressers with just about no help.
Chapel, come on...that's a totally Euro thing...you were trying to impress her.
CHAAAAPELLLLLL!
So Eurogames are for dimwits with short attention spans or are they just for misogynists?
OH SHIT son! That's a burn like I've never heard before in my goddamn life.
My girl thinks geeky is sexy. And her first board game past Monopoly was War of the Ring. She's just a bit above average, I guess ;)
On a more serious note...Ubarose's post points out one of the more obnoxious things about the pro-Euro establishment. Why is it any time someone is trying to interest someone else in games (usually a wife/girlfriend it seems like) the suggestions are the same bracket of simple Euros? Not only is it snobbery to assume that games about fucking farming and villa building have more "newbie" appeal to new gamers, but it's also like there's an assumption that "nongamers" (or women) can't handle anything more detailed or complex than LOST CITIES or TICKET TO RIDE. How many times have we seen some jackass offer FLOWERPOWER as a "wife/girlfriend friendly game"? My wife would punch me in the face if I suggested we play that, but she'd probably go for FURY OF DRACULA.
I'll tell you from experience that I've found that really interesting, exciting games- no matter the rules complexity or relative inexperience of the players, or their GENDER for that matter- do a lot more to hook gamers than going on the assumption that they can't handle games more systematically complicated than CANDYLAND.
Eurogamers have turned a lot of gamers- who once conquered kingdoms, planets, universes- into a bunch of pantywaisted milquetoasts saying "I'll go two" or giggling when they complete a set of colored, numbered cards.
MAN UP!
BOTH, Anonymous...get with the program.
Just wanted to make sure...boy I'm glad my wife plays Battlelore and Marvel Heroes -- I'd hate to have to tell her that's she's not too bright.
Anonymouse said:
Just wanted to make sure...boy I'm glad my wife plays Battlelore and Marvel Heroes -- I'd hate to have to tell her that's she's not too bright.
I'll tell her for you pal - I still have my pants on (brushes anonymous aside while grabbing crotch and sniffing loudly).
If your husband was a real man, he'd fix your car.
How many times have we seen some jackass offer FLOWERPOWER as a "wife/girlfriend friendly game"? My wife would punch me in the face if I suggested we play that
I think that would be my wife's reaction as well. The first boardgame I played my wife in was Risk.
She kicked my ass.
We then moved on to the sublime subtleties of Car Wars: The Card Game; all the while yelling, "Missile to the REAR!"
Now, to get my wife away from her icon making goodness to playing Dungeon Twister.
Ah, the challenge.
Maybe next weekend I'll be playing a quick game of Samurai, or maybe rock climbing or mountain biking
My money says Chapel is polishing his loafers and pressing his khakis this weekend...
LOTR, Battlelore, Marvel Heroes...
When you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY do NOT want get laid. Aceept no substitutes.
oh god im cumming
thank you. thank all of you.
We need like a catch-phrase, sitcom style..."CHHHHAAAAPPPELLLLL!", cameras zoom in on someone's frustrated face, horns blaring "Waaah waaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaaah...."
I'm picturing actor Wayne Knight as Chapel.
"Hello....Chapel."
LOTR, Battlelore, Marvel Heroes...
When you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY do NOT want get laid.
Obviously you are refering to tile-laying, possibly Carcassonne since Eurogamers are not familiar with any other meaning of the word "laid" except for perhaps storage as in: "I laid my game boxes on-edge in my IKEA bookshelf so they wont warp."
Holy crap! Anonymous has split in two, with his Euro half dueling for supremacy with his AT half.
It's like...Superman III or something. Though hopefully less sucky.
Ken B. said...
"Hello....Chapel."
Oh - that is great ... I can so picture that.
Eurogamers don't get laid. Eurogamers have cold calculated sex - surprisingly with little to no wood. If you count screwing yourself with your last cube placement then I suppose you could say euro's masturbate alot...
What is the sound of one eyebrow rising?
LOTR, Battlelore, Marvel Heroes...
When you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY do NOT want get laid. Aceept no substitutes.
The way we play, winner gets to be on top. Are we doing something wrong?
Newman would fit in perfectly with the EuroGamers that I've met here in the Twin Cities.
As far as wife-friendly games go, ubarose is a bit of a rarity.
Many women *I* know prefer games that are not very confrontational. And because the basic Tenets of AT games is attack, followed by screw the leader, followed by wreak havoc.
Euro games' are polite by nature. They do not tend to be overly vicious.
Certainly that isn't true for many women. I know of one particular D.C. area principal who is absolutely ruthless.
As to a catch phrase, we can't just call out MITCHELLLL? Joel and the bots would be proud.
"Hello....Chapel."
Sounds like when people would say hello to Kent from Real Genius.
--Mike L.
Eurogames.
No commitment required.
"Job"-based themes.
Little to no player interaction.
Quantity over quality.
You don't think about it later. In fact, you might try _not_ to.
Common for husbands to hide from their wives.
Eurogames=German-speaking truckstop hookers.
Barnes: I'll tell you from experience that I've found that really interesting, exciting games- no matter the rules complexity or relative inexperience of the players, or their GENDER for that matter- do a lot more to hook gamers than going on the assumption that they can't handle games more systematically complicated than CANDYLAND.
This is a great point. However, in defense of the whitey-tighty euro-nerd crowd, most women are not seeking out boardgames on their own, so there does seem to be some gender difference with respect to boardgames.
And it's not like (american) society is encouraging men to play boardgames either. We are socialized to discard the games and embrace manly toys like guns and snowmobiles when we reach adulthood. So what is the real reason why most women aren't playing boardgames without being pushed to it by men?
AT
Noone except those that play it want to play it.
Most people cringe when they see adults play it.
Most people don't understand it.
Also common for husbands to hide from their wives.
AT = Gay Porn
Anonymous, won't you ever learn? The whole AT is gay thing has been covered already.
Incidentally, if there are any euro gamers out their whose wives are interested in finding out what these orgasm things are that they keep reading about, feel free to send them my way.
From the amount of posturing here, you might think that AT gamers are insecure about their masculinity.
Which is understandable. Cardboard and plastic are feeble substitutes for the real thing.
Too bad that painting model soldiers conflicts with actually having a life.
Eurogames=German-speaking truckstop hookers.
Thanks, Barnes. You owe my firm a new monitor.
*wipes water off of flatscreen*
Euro=Like Nutty Nagin in N.O., talks a good game about building and doesn't do shit.
I'm picturing actor Wayne Knight as Chapel.
I'm told that I look like that guy whenever I shave my circa 1994 goatee off. I take it as a compliment.
I'm proof, though, that fat, bearded guys don't have to huddle over Euros and declare them elegant. I crap on your stereotypes!
I think anonymous hasn't come out of the closet yet because we don't have anonymous flagging here.
The euro crowd seems to like to behave in the same "Non-confrontational" yet in reality backstabbing way that euro games are modeled.
Sure there is no outward confrontation however the games are about dominating people, their land and goods through reckless economic might. Spoiling natural resources for selfish victory. Shake you hand while kicking you and your children off the family farm.
Real nice mechanics there. Shaking down contractors, laying off thousands, turning lush fields into dustbowls, working generations to the bone to build a fucking "cathedral" with only the promise of heaven but a life of hell.
Where are the mechanics to ensure the children are fed and the schools have new books - oh the sorrow in it all. Who will rise up and champion the rights of the weak? The cast aside euro peons need a voice - that voice is an army of plastic, in your face malevolence.
Come out of the closet anonymous - take your thumbs down flag and shove it up your woody ass.
Word.
I have a magic penis.
I think anonymous hasn't come out of the closet yet because we don't have anonymous flagging here.
Pat, a thumbs up here!
You finally spotted the truth about Eurogames. They are not about nice stuff, but about slavery, lay offs and stock market speculation. Yes: the subjects of modern, capitalist, Western society. Cold calculation, anonymous and greedy under the guise of rationality.
AT is about slugging it out mano a mano. The old way. Open and maybe even 'clean'. The subjects of the world we have lost, a feudal society, where warriors were the top caste. Emotional. individual, braggard and hungry for power under the guise of tradition. The world of fantasy and the Old West.
In the light of history, AT is on the losing side. In fact it is in league with notorious opponents of modernity like 19th century German philosophers (Oswald Spengler) and exponents of political islam (Hassan al Banna).
One day, people will look back at this episode and shake their head at this rear guard action of a more glorious, but not necessarily happier age.
Recommended viewing: Once upon a time in the West
I'm just not buying the whole, "why not watch your man be a viking," thing. Rare, I believe, was the Viking that debated the pros and cons of pewter over plastic miniatures. Just because you play Heroscape instead of Caylus doesn't mean you're in [i]Fight Club[/i]. Reaching a bit here, are we not?
Here is what I did last weekend, while you AT'ers were building your Toy Heroscrape Fortress of Solitude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpluJRVkcA
Be careful. I heard that among kayakers, there's a division where the uncool ones troll on board game blogs while the cool ones are all kayaking.
You betcha. Industry should not waste time on banana's and church's when warmachines are needed.
Your AT badge is in the mail J De. Don't worry the glory days are quickly making a come back. Why just yesterday my neighbor tried to raid my fridge armed with a sword and I blew his fucking head off with a shotgun! If that wasn't enough the bastard came back to life and tried to eat my leg but I burned what was left of him and reduced him to cinders.
Just imagine if he had tried to bid on the contents of my cube hoard- er.. fridge.
I believe Vikings prefered Pewter miniatures.
I want a massage-gymnast too.
As the fonz would say.."Heyyyy..."
Wait a minute... husband?!?!
I thought Uba was a hornbag lesbian. Now I find out she's a soccer mom. My morning is shattered.
Also I want to know why wives are playing games at all, unless Knizia has invented one which can be played next to the kitchen sink.
I totally spanked it when skeltor said that... and I was saving myself for the next barnes comment...
I still remember the day the day I taught the missus Battlelore. I let her her pregnant form out of the kitchen, she put on her boots and used them to kick my arse.
Ah, the love!
jesus christ, muzza, couldn't you wait ten minutes? I just got done with skeletor's!
This easily wins the prize of "Worst Thread Ever" in our admittedly short life here at F:AT.
At least we did learn that Pronoblem has a Magic Penis(tm), so at least the thread is a tad educational.
Vikings were all the time talking about pewter versus plastic. "Herdi herdi herdi, those pewter Warhammer figures are so expensive!"
Vikings. Cost-effective seekers of gametime immersion.
As to a catch phrase, we can't just call out MITCHELLLL? Joel and the bots would be proud.
Call me a heretic, but I thought Mike was better.
If I was a viking I would carve my miniatures out of the bones of my enemies...
well it's either that or Fimo.
Just because you play Heroscape instead of Caylus doesn't mean you're in [i]Fight Club[/i]. Reaching a bit here, are we not?
I am and I'm a badass.
~Poor ol' asskicking Stephen Brent Avery Esq. the 3rd.~
"This easily wins the prize of "Worst Thread Ever" in our admittedly short life here at F:AT."
Worst thread ever? I actually found it pretty amusing, though it is the first one I actually read through.
*Sigh* Fortress: AT just isn't like it used to be, back when we used to just pat each other on the back for liking games and Franklin used to write those "feel good" reviews with the words of Christ in red text...before all these roustabout ne'er-do-wells invaded with their lack of common courtesy...I miss a lot of friendly avatars here...
Yeah, fuck this place! That's it I'm leaving!
I don't know where to start. That's what I get for taking the evening to run the kids over to soccer practice . . . not.
Well, I guess I'm sorry for starting "The Worst Thread Ever."
I wish this anonymous would leave his name.
Anonymous said...
BOTH, Anonymous...get with the program.
Just wanted to make sure...boy I'm glad my wife plays Battlelore and Marvel Heroes -- I'd hate to have to tell her that's she's not too bright.
You sir, are peach. I'm guessing that you believe that your wife is smart and sexy and interesting, and that it makes you bristle a bit that someone might consider her otherwise. I bet you let her know this is how you feel. I bet she feels the same way about you. When you play together, you talk, and laugh and maybe cuss a bit, but what you are really saying is "you are smart, and sexy and interesting and I'm having a damn good time being with you." When you win, you puff up your chest a bit, although you may not realize it. When she wins she gets that big smile, doesn't she? I bet this is true of every person here who said that their lover plays games with them. Playing games with a lover is always about sex. I guess some people can deal with that better than others.
Michael Barnes said...
it's also like there's an assumption that "nongamers" (or women) can't handle anything more detailed or complex than LOST CITIES or TICKET TO RIDE.
Thank you Michael. If it says 12+ on the side of the box, it means that A TWELVE YEAR OLD is smart enough to play it. It's a game, not an IQ test. It truly bewilders me that some people think the best way to introduce an adult to gaming is to treat them like they are stupid and can't handle something that a child is capable of playing. Reminder, games with a lover is always about sex. Giving your lover the impression that you think she is stupid is not a good idea. I know many women whose husbands or boyfriends are gamers. I have never heard one of them say that the reason they aren't interested in playing a game was because it was too difficult.
Dan Corban said...
In response to the obvious jab at Lost Cities:
It's not that we want to start gaming with Lost Cities. It seems that for many women, matching colors and counting cards is the most they desire to do or are effective at doing. Some wives would just rather watch American Idol or Flip This House. Some just have the attention span of a fruit fly.
Mr. Corban, I hope you are not talking about your own wife, because if you are, you need more than a wife friendly game. You also need a good kick in the butt.
And Monkeyboy doth protest too much, but the video was hot.
Your AT badge is in the mail J De.
Paraphrasing Groucho Marx: I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would accept me.
Must get back to the fridge!
Ubarose--
It's all in fun. It's not your fault this has devolved so rapidly; I blame Pronoblem and his Magic Penis.
You sir, are peach. I'm guessing that you believe that your wife is smart and sexy and interesting, and that it makes you bristle a bit that someone might consider her otherwise
Aww shucks (blush)...
Also I want to know why wives are playing games at all, unless Knizia has invented one which can be played next to the kitchen sink.
I don't think Knizia invented that game...
Story 1: My wife is in a group of woman (about 12) who get together once per month to play Bunko. On the first night all the woman said 'I hope this isn't a game where we have to think at all...' Nope, no thinking required. Everyone, but my wife was happy.
When my wife got home we played two hands of San Juan and one game of M44. :)
Story 2: My wife was a 'Mom's group' meeting for the school my son is in. On the first meeting, each Mom had to say something about herself that she thought was unique about her. Her comment was something to the effect of: 'I play board games that make you think.' (It was worded a lot better of course.)
My wife reported that everyone in the room looked at her as if she was from Mars.
I'm sure there are plenty of woman out there like my wife and ubarose who will happily kick your ass in the latest Euro or AT game (well maybe not ubarose for the Euro), but from what I have seen and my wife has reported to me, they are far from the majority.
Someone needs to make Ken a "stater of the obvious" badge.
Yeah, the problem here is that the majority of the world doesn't like thinking, whether it's Euro or Amero or whatever. They play games to kill time and socialize and probably would be just as happy taking turns rolling a pair of d6 to see who got the highest roll.
This is why Monopoly and Scrabble outsell everything else: they are games that everyone already knows how to play. Practically no thinking required at all.
Yo man, just coverin' my tracks, is all.
My girlfriend kicked everyones ass at Fire and Axe the other day. She is also a mean Doom and Battlelore player and is trying to design a civ-lite game.
Anyone jealous yet?
You are all fools, just like the people who buy games at Wal Mart-the "Sheeples". "Sheeples", like women and so-called Ameritrashers, are unable to comprehend the subtleties, complexities, and richness inherent in "Thinking Man's" games adn this is why they favor games like Clue or Descent. This is why gamers are superiour people, and in particular, Eurogamers. Honstely, I think anyone who doesn't want to think while they play a game should be shipped off to concentration camps. And if you aren't able to think, because you are a woman or an Ameritrasher, then you should probably go too and leave the rest of us to play SERIOUS games.
However, if they can be converted with the simpler eurogames, then they should be spared. Otherwise, sheeples must die.
...probably would be just as happy taking turns rolling a pair of d6 to see who got the highest roll.
Oh, you've played Bunko?
Congratulations Anonymous on your best post ever. You've really out done yourself this time.
I don't think, I just stab.
Ah I love that anonymous guy. For such a "thinking mans gamer" I would have thought you could at least spell the word and properly. Or where you too busy trying to work out how to spell honestly properly too. You sir are a class A fuckass. Yep I said it. But then dont be suprised since I'm just a dumb ole boy who doesn't think when he speaks, like a woman according to your definition. As for your comment re. a concentration camp. Maybe you should concentrate more on your spelling and think before you push that submit button and less on your so-called mature games. Give me a fucking break. Dude. You play boardgames! I don't give a shit how you dress it up or how many "elegant mechanics" you manage to include; you're still just a fucking boardgame geek who is too much of a fucking pussy to post his real name.
"I don't think, I just stab."
Good job Stephen.
Thanks for clearing that up and getting this thing back on track.
I think the most recent anonymous post was satire. Or at least I hope so.
Yes, I like to state the obvious.
Anonymous:
Clearly, you are a fool. Especially if you do not realize that Clue is actually a good game and (along with the 3M line) among the ancestors of the modern Euro. Some of the more recent versions of Clue (especially the Card Game) fix many of the problems with the 50+ year old game.
Also, there are occsionally decent games that populate Walmart. It isn't more than 1 or 2 per year.
I just want to make it clear that the first two anonymous posts were me so I'm not confused with the other anonymous guy who's a real 'stroke. I should have posted with my name to begin with but... I'm a goof.
We need to add "good" and "evil" anonymous badges.
We should start a wager board about who Anonymous really is...at first I thought it was Tom Vasel, but then I realized that Anonymous doesn't have the I-am-the-word-of-Christ complex of stating things in red text...I have a few other suspects, and they all have noticeable "friendly" BGG avatars...
Aye. Using anonymous as a pseudonym seems kind of pointless. Folks should at least pick a handle....even if it doesn't actually say who they are.
I've always suspected that Skeletor is really Frank Langella hiding because we'd make fun of him for being one of the worst Draculas ever. Perhaps even worse than Harry Nielssen.
I think that paulw and Clarissimus both make valid points.
There aren't that many gamers of either gender. However, it is also true that among gamers there tends to be a split along gender lines with regards to how different genders play. This may sound sexist to some, but I personally believe that it is important to acknowledged and understand that there are underlying biological and chemical differences between the sexes which, combined with socialization, create certain tendencies and behaviors. There have been enough studies done that I feel I can speak in general terms without causing offense. Obviously, there are always exceptions.
Men have a biological imperative to compete. Women have a biological imperative to create social structure. Therefore, when men play games their primary motivation is challenge and competition, with socializing being secondary. When women play games, their primary motivation is structured social time, with challenge and competition being secondary. The primary function of women's Bunko, or Mah Jong or Bridge clubs isn't to play games. The games simply provide structure for social interaction.
I don't feel like a rarity, because I know many female gamers and wives of gamers who play (there is a difference). They each have their likes and dislikes with regards to games, however every single one, when asked has said that socializing is a big part of why they play. They like playing with their husbands/bf, with family or with other couples. Interestingly,they don't like playing when they are the only woman a the group of men to who they are not related, or with uncoupled males in the group even when there is another woman playing. As one friend put it, "It gets weird." That weirdness is the testosterone kicking in. Studies have shown that when you introduce a woman into a competitive male situation, it makes the men stupid. Their lizard brains kick in and they start engaging in stone age mating ritual behavior. The competition will intensify between the men and they will take unnecessary and foolhardy risks. Alternately, some men respond by becoming protective of the woman. It's why mixed gender combat troops have higher fatalities than single gender troops.
It is also one of the reasons you won't see many women walking into a game club night. Friendly games turn into two guys battling to the death, one guy who won't attack the female player and, although the studies don't mention this, one "look at me I'm so funny" obnoxious guy. The woman walks out thinking, "Shit. What was that? A club for guys with the social skills of a small kitchen utensil. I'm not going back." And then one of the guys at the club posts on BGG about how he hates it when someone brings their girlfriend to game club because it makes everyone act stupid. I know one couple who addressed this issue by starting an open gaming couples night as well as family events. They have a lot of women playing now, also the snacks are really good. It's like the Tasty Treat Olympics, because some women compete is different ways then others.
Interestingly, the women I know tend to favor both lite Euros that have a little "gotcha" in them and AT games. I think it's because these games are more conducive to socializing than medium to heavy Euros or war-games, which tend to discourage chit chat.
If your interested, these are the games that the majority of my female friends like. Your mileage may vary.
Light Euros
Funny Friends
California
Citadels
AT
Railroad Tycoon
Fury of Dracula
Arkham Horror
Robo Rally
Merchants of Venus
Abstracts
Ingenious
Phoenix
Just to illustrate that tastes vary here is a list of games that only one or two of my female friends like.
Settlers of Catan
Samurai
Nexus Ops
Nuclear War
Pirates Cove
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Mall of Horror
British Rails
Winner's Circle
All Wound Up
Fairy Tale
Torres
Las Vegas Showdown
Talisman
Attika
Memoir '44/Battlelore
Cleopatra and the Society of Accountants
LOTR seems like another popular one judging from the posts in this thread.
I think that is it.
The primary function of women's Bunko, or Mah Jong or Bridge clubs isn't to play games. The games simply provide structure for social interaction.
I always thought the primary funtion of these games was to get trashed on margaritas and white wine.
Seriously tho', interesting thoughts on how males respond to a female in the group and eerily spot-on.
The games simply provide structure for social interaction.
This is an interesting point and I don't think it's limited to women. I've seen many male gamers who literally CAN NOT socialize on a normal level outside of playing a game or having a conversation about a game.
It's funny you bring up what happens when one girl comes into an all-male gaming environment- I've got plenty of stories about that situation. Last summer at my shop we had this girl that started hanging around...she was a pretty smart kid, probably about 17 (although she said she was 20 at one point) with blue hair. She played EVERYTHING even though she was fairly uninitiated into gaming, and played everything well.
And let me tell you, my regulars (mostly college-aged males) collectively LOST THEIR GOD DAMNED MINDS. She knew it too, and rather than being repelled by the buffoonish, male catfight behavior she totally milked these guys and took it for all it was worth...I saw her once walking up to the store and stopping to put on makeup before she went in.
So we had the guys doing the mating rituals, the guys doing the protective behavior, and the guys doing the "OMG a girl- time to be obnoxious!" thing. It was crazy, and I just sat back and watched the madness ensue.
Does this have anything to do with the massage-gymnast I've heard so much about?
On a serious note - you make completely valid points and it is worth noting that typically most of the gaming crowd that Michael describes (the ones that can't talk about anything but games) are the worst offenders in every situation with women. It isn't limited to games but rather social interaction with woman that for whatever reason was stunted (cough - euros - cough).
I on the other hand like to kick the crap out of any women(wife) I play against and smile, letting them(wife) know I can help them (wife)out privately afterwards to pick up their(wife's) game.
So we had the guys doing the mating rituals, the guys doing the protective behavior, and the guys doing the "OMG a girl- time to be obnoxious!" thing. It was crazy, and I just sat back and watched the madness ensue.
I bet it was better than anything on Comedy Central. I was a temporary member of an RPG group in college while my regular DM was out and about doing co-op work; I quickly discovered that one of the women in the group deliberately didn't wear a bra to the gaming sessions (yes, she was very attractive, and yes, she easily could have filled out a bra). She simply liked to watch some of the unattached guys in the group try to fight (such as it were) over her. She also always seemed to have more than enough magic items thrown her way by the DM... Imagine that.
We only have one female who consistently attends my regular AmeriTrash days here in the Twin Cities, and she's a wonderful nerd married to a game designer.
At their wedding reception, you could easily tell the difference between her friends and his, because hers were the introverted nerds (D&D players, males & females) and his were the extroverted freaks (vampire larp players, males & females).
Her favorite games are Arkham Horror, Fury of Dracula, and anything with zombies. But she also likes that pastel camel game that somebody brought once, so go figure.
We haven't really noticed the female factor that the rest of you are talking about. A couple of our guys are married, and most of the rest have girlfriends, so nobody is acting weird when we have a woman or two show up. That said, some guys are less likely to attack the female players in-game.
Maybe it's a local thing, I dunno. But it seems like there are a lot of cool geek girls around here, mostly under the age of 25.
A friend dragged me to a Xena convention several years ago, and I was stunned at how many attractive young women were there. Last summer, different friends dragged me to a local science-fiction convention, and again, quite a few attractive young women there, including many in costumes. Some of them were even walking around in groups without any guys.
The best local game/comic shop is just blocks from a major college campus, so a respectable number of women stop by, though usually to pick up manga and anime. About 1/4 of the local vampire larp players are women. Even my relatively normal girlfriend was big fan of Dark Angel and the X-Files back in the day and has played D&D.
When i lived in the states the shop we played at hired a young attractive girl to run the cash register and do general shop shit. Same thing happened here. The younger guys freaked out. Some of them couldn't concentrate on anything other than this girl. And she was WAY to young for some of these lads. But the whole "cant talk about anything else but games" comment. Used to work for GW and we went to Prague for a managers meeting. Sweet eh? So there we were just across from the charles Bridge at a lovel outside cafe and these three dorks,in a place they had never been to, start discussing the best way to attack a fixed position with a tank in 40k. This I think is the real difference in gamers; it isn't euro/ameritash, although most people on here seem to play at least some eurogames and the dickhead anonymous guys flat out refuse, its the whole, hate to say it, "geek" thing. These are the guys who give gamers,comic book readers,star wars fans, basically any counterculture activity that the general public think is the domain of social misfits and basement dwelling tuckbox making meeples, but in actual fact is full of normal(ish) people who CAN actually have a conversation about something other than "dork stuff", my girlfriends term for this shit. This to me is the real division. Some people think they are engaged in some academic undertaking when playing a game where you harvest coffee, or laydown beans,beads, or whatever. Others choose to make use of the social aspects of gaming (a) because they want to talk a little shit while playing a game, and (b) because they can. Because they don't freeze up when a woman enters the room, the dont stammer and stutter like some high school freshman, then blow their load when they catch a glimpse of real live flesh. Ever notice BusenMemo is always on geeklists? Coincidence or is that as close as some of those guys are gonna get?
Well done Alan, very well done.
Dear Aunt Ubarose,
So, as a dork, how do I cope with female players? It is not as if I *like* making them feel uncomfortable...
Bashful in Dorking
ps. we have a bet running here who will be the first to do a blog on "what games to play with my wife/gf/so".
I have €20 on Malloc, don't let me down!
Ubarose:
Your list of games that your female friends prefer is telling. They tend to be the less agressive ones.
Railroad Tycoon is mostly a Euro.
Arkham Horror and Fury of Dracula are co-op..ish.
Robo Rally is indirectly aggressive. You plan mostly for your own benefit, and the interaction is almost accidental.
Merchant is an economic trading game that only allows combat if you use the optional player attack rules.
I don't know of many women at all who like Game of Thrones or Twilight Imperium, and I don't think I've ever seen a woman playing Battlelore (although I know it happens).
Admittedly, I've never played in a group of entirely women (which I could only pull off in a creepy "Some Like it Hot" kind of way.) So perhaps the claws come out only when the weird male factor you quite correctly describe is not present?
J de said...
Dear Aunt Ubarose,
So, as a dork, how do I cope with female players? It is not as if I *like* making them feel uncomfortable...
Bashful in Dorking
Like a sister. Name calling required. Tattling optional. Punching her in the arm if she loses is not advised, unless she's your lover and likes that sort of thing.
Jack Hill said...
Ubarose:
Your list of games that your female friends prefer is telling. They tend to be the less agressive ones.
About 50% of the women I play with are social gamers. They only enjoy playing in a social context, and therefore, only play because the game is part of a larger social event. If it weren't for the fact that the social event includes playing a game they wouldn't play. And if it weren't for the fact that the social event included something in addition to playing a game, they probably wouldn't attend. They aren't newbies as they have had enough exposure to games that they understand common mechanics and have played enough games to have an opinion about what they like and dislike. However, they haven't crossed the line to "I want X game for my birthday," which is a good indication of the birth of a gamer. I think this is reflected in the games on my "Liked by Most" list. Cooperative games are very social. The other games, with the exception of Phoenix, all lend themselves to lots of talking. Even Ingenious, where everyone tends to count each other's points, complain loudly and the chorus of "hump the bag" is often heard.
What I find most interesting is that Lost Cities, Bohnanza, Ticket to Ride, Carcassone, Queen's Necklace, and all those other games that are considered the "magic bullet" to get your wife/gf interested in games, do not appear on the list. Among the moms, the most frequent comment I hear about these games is, "The kids would like this." I know you are thinking that this is because all the guy gamers that we know prefer AT games. I assure you that this is not the case.
All but one of the women gamers I know, started as social gamers. Each one of these women has their own unique taste in games, just like men. Some moved on to Samurai and Torres, others moved on to Nexus Ops and Battlelore. If I would venture a generalization, which I do with great hesitation, I would say that the women "gamers" I know prefer games that are more tactical than strategic. You don't make a decision in a tactical game until it is your turn, which leaves you free to socialize when it is not your turn.
My advise to anyone who wants to introduce a non-gaming wife/gf to games is:
1. Play with another couple.
2. Choose a game that allows a lot of social interaction.
3. Pick a game that plays to her strengths and/or interests.
4. Don't be afraid to slap down a game that has 12+ on the side of the box.
5. Pay attention the girl not the game. Shift your agenda to match hers. Socializing first priority, challenge and competition second priority.
If your wife/gf is already a gamer, she has her own interests and tastes and you have to accept that. If your tastes don't match, compromise and negotiate. I had to play one game of Torres and two games of Cleopatra and the Society of Accountants to earn my friend trying Cosmic Encounter, which she still owes me.
"5. Pay attention the girl not the game. Shift your agenda to match hers. Socializing first priority, challenge and competition second priority."
As someone who for years was buying games and trying to get others interested, your comment above is true for anyone. Whenever my non-gamer friends would come over for a game I always tried to make sure it was a fun social event and not a drive to win. Winning is built into the game but socializing isn't always.
Agreed. The aim of the 'game' is to win the game. The aim of 'playing' the game is to have fun. If you aren't having fun, then why bother?
By far the most informative article and thread on "Women and Gaming" that I've read either here or on the Geek. Congrats Ubarose and F:AT.
William
Your comment that women seem to prefer tactical games is spot on. I've noticed it myself.
That probably does tie back to a few cognition articles I've read about women having a better aptitude at detailed tasks.
I also agree about social games. We actually refer in our group to an entire class of abstracts (like Ingenious) as chatting games. Not really all that hard, and one player works out their turn while everyone talks.
The lists of non-gamer games on the Geek is usually awful, as they are desperately trying to convert people to Eurogames.
2 player games are probably out. And I've always suspected that a simple multiplayer abstract like Blokus (it's got only one rule), Qwirkle (resembles Ingenious. I might actually like Qwirkle better).
...unless they are geek girls. The sort with a Doctor Who collection on VHS, or with a collection of Buffy and Firefly DVDs.
I might drag them straight into Fury of Dracula or Tales of the Arabian Nights. I got one girl to start gaming by playing Star Saga One. (This is a hybrid RPG / board / computer game written for PC-DOS in basic. It still holds up as the best paragraph game ever. Even putting Tales and Star Trek to shame.)
Just to think about games that I have found woman to like and to comment on your list...
Assuming the girls are 'gamers':
Citadels - Yep
Fury of Dracula - Yep
Ingenious - Wife hates it. Too Abstract.
Nuclear War - Nope
British Rails - Yep
Memoir '44 - Yep
Samurai - Yep
I have found that non-gamer girls have really don't like the above games. Games that for me see to cross the gamer and non-gamer divide for woman...
Settlers of Catan - Yep
Cleopatra - Mixed results
Lost Cities - Yep
Ticket to Ride - Yep
Carcassone - Yep, as long as you don't go too wild with additions
I guess overall, I found that your list is good for gamer girls, but not for non-gamer. I've found TtR, CC and LC can cross cross over to non-gamers, but can't think of a AT game that does. Maybe you have one?
Maybe I'm just really lucky, but my girlfriend loves "Star Wars Miniatures: Starship Battles", "Robo Rally" (our cats are named Twonky and Twitch), and "Mag-Blast".
Yeah, I'm really lucky.
paulw said . . .
I guess overall, I found that your list is good for gamer girls, but not for non-gamer. I've found TtR, CC and LC can cross cross over to non-gamers, but can't think of a AT game that does. Maybe you have one?
I really don't know.
I've never played TrR, CC or LC with a newbie adult gamer, so I don't know what people who like those games would like. I don't mean to sound like a snoot, but those are games my daughter plays with the neighbor's daughter. Except for LC. They prefer Fairy Tale.
I also never try to make non-gamers play with me. Non-gamers are people who don't play games and don't like games. It's a waste of their time and my time to sit through TtR with them.
Newbie gamers, I love. They are people who actually show a spark of interest or at least curiosity when you say, "let's play something," and open the game cupboard.
Over several visits, newbie gamers who end up at my house are going to be introduced to:
Railroad Tycoon
Nexus Ops
Arkham Horror
Talisman
California
Ingenious
(Note this list has changed over the years as new games came out. It used to include Ursuppe, Merchants of Venus, Roborally and Settlers.)
They usually like two, tolerate two and hate two. We go from there.
I also never try to make non-gamers play with me. Non-gamers are people who don't play games and don't like games. It's a waste of their time and my time to sit through TtR with them.
...
Don't mean to sound like a snoot, but those are games my daughter plays with the neighbor's daughter.
Your daughter has good taste in games then.
To me, a gamer is someone who is into this hobby and a non-gamer is not. That doesn't mean that a non-gamer won't play a board game and have fun with it.
I think your definition is a little too black and white.
First I never try to make non-gamers play a game. However, I will suggest it if nothing is going on and it beats sitting around and watching TV (which is my in-laws idea of being together).
Second, I find non-gamers simply don't know that there are other options other than Monopoly, Clue, etc.
Is playing TtR going to make them a gamer. No, but I find people who are not into the hobby will have fun with TtR and other 'gateway' games.
Paulw,
I think that I break down the people you call "non-gamers" in to smaller sub groups.
non-gamer: People like my step-dad who would literally rather haul rocks in wheel barrow than play a board game. They mutter things like, "stupid, childish waste of time."
family gamers: People who play games because it is a nice multi-generational activity. Usually parents & grandparents. I also count in this group the adult relatives who will play a game at larger family gatherings because it cuts down on the family squabbles that will arise if conversation is allowed to wander without limits. These people want games with simple rules, short playing times and mechanisms that minimize differences in experience, skill and age. Obviously, they like Euro family games.
casual gamers: They will play something to kill a little time. I find there are a lot of card players in this group. They want extremely short playing times & short rules, like family gamers, but don't mind games that reward skill gained by experience. They like games that gamers call fillers.
party gamers: You know who these people are.
So maybe the women that you are calling non-gamers, I would call family or casual gamers. Personally I know as many men as women in these groups, so I don't think that what makes AT games unappealing to these folks is a gender issue. I think length of play and the complexity of the rules are the primary factors. And for casual gamers, the size of the box and the number of bits is also a factor. You can take little filler games to the beach, a pub, or back stage at a gig. Descent, not so much.
I might bash Euros, but they are excellent family and filler gamers. I am not above slapping down TtR or Elfenland after Thanksgiving dinner to avoid taking to my mother-in-law, or whipping out Mystery Rummy to kill time with my mom on the beach.
ubarose,
I like your definitions of types of non-gamers, especially about the ones who would rather push wheelbarrows full of rocks rather than play boardgames.
One of the most unusual gaming experiences of my life was at a family get-together on the Fourth of July. It was in northern Minnesota, and it rained hard almost all day long. My uncles and cousins were watching tv, getting drunk, and/or struggling to get a fire going to cook the burgers on.
Since this was back in the 90's, I didn't have any boardgames with me, and everybody was kind of burned out on my grandmother's boardgame collection, which included classics like Monopoly, Clue and Aggravation. She also had some oddities, including High Stakes (a Vegas gambling version of Monopoly) and a 3M hockey boardgame, complete with penalties and penalty box. So I spent the morning tuning up several decks of Mythos that I brought.
My sister saw the artwork on the cards and got curious. She likes horror books and movies, but wasn't familiar with Lovecraft. Eventually I got her interested in trying the game, and with her help, we managed to get my mom, my aunt Cindy, and even my grandmother to all sit down for a five-player game of Mythos.
The rules were strange to them, but I patiently explained and continued to answer questions. Finally, we got playing. The game went pretty well, although the heavy draw and discard cycles caused the same lengthy pauses that my usual gaming crowd experienced with Mythos.
By mid-game, everybody understood the game really well and was having fun. A couple of the menfolk stopped by a few times during the game, astounded by the disturbing artwork and great length of the game. (You're still playing that?)
Two and a half hours later, my sister won the game. (These decks were tuned to be balanced against each other and not go for a cheesy phobia beatdown win.) But the most amazing part was where my grandmother critiqued the Cthulhu/Pacific Islands deck that she had been playing. Her comments cut right to the heart of what worked and didn't work with the deck. I was so proud of her!
It can't really have effect, I believe this way.
I totally match with everything you've written.
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