tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post7763381691073565836..comments2023-11-03T02:44:56.790-07:00Comments on Fortress: Ameritrash: Mechanical MechanicsMatt Throwerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04426055092986158446noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-54171996037076181542007-04-17T00:45:00.000-07:002007-04-17T00:45:00.000-07:00I'm coming into this a bit late - I've been playin...I'm coming into this a bit late - I've been playing games since Thursday.<BR/><BR/>Matt, that was a fantastic article; another oasis in the sea of noise that is FAT. The concept of "organic games" is someting we should all be aware of, and if any term should pass into common usage that's one of them.<BR/><BR/>On mathematically-based euros; I think most eurogamers would agree with you. Nobody likes anything that becomes too scripted. However I often find in some of these games that simply taking an alternative approach breaks the "winning strategy".<BR/><BR/>In some cases it doesn't work, because you'll find it brings you no closer to winning and simply offers victory to another player; but I think most eurogamers acknowledge such games are bad.<BR/><BR/>I will always prefer the hybrids - sure, there is always a little maths but it's nothing that anybody can't work out for themselves.Pawnstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138454253813433739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-41643746773928736492007-04-16T19:27:00.000-07:002007-04-16T19:27:00.000-07:00Nice comments anonymous- let us know who you are n...<I>Nice comments anonymous- let us know who you are next time!</I> <BR/><BR/>I can't figure out how to log in. My name is Ted. I used to be on BGG. I like your Blog. Keep it up!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-63095134966385491492007-04-15T01:49:00.000-07:002007-04-15T01:49:00.000-07:00Anonymous is busy playing Elfenland and cannot com...Anonymous is busy playing Elfenland and cannot come to the blog right now.Mr Skeletorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641339798508135450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-71506258730391261072007-04-15T00:01:00.000-07:002007-04-15T00:01:00.000-07:00You're right...not as "daring" as posting somethin...You're right...not as "daring" as posting something anonymously, is it?Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-17512040566002887492007-04-14T09:59:00.000-07:002007-04-14T09:59:00.000-07:00People playing with plastic figures in a fantasy w...People playing with plastic figures in a fantasy world commenting on middle school kids being roughed up and displaying their limited sexual imaginations, all because they think saying motherfucker is daring? AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-66780767681310673222007-04-13T11:12:00.000-07:002007-04-13T11:12:00.000-07:00I don't know. I think At games are more than just ...I don't know. I think At games are more than just games that AT players like.<BR/><BR/>I'd say we've done a good job of defining AT games. I think the group consensus is more or less this.<BR/><BR/>Must have:<BR/><BR/>An emphasis on narrative/story<BR/>An emphasis on theme<BR/>Player conflict<BR/>Risk Management/Gambling<BR/>An emphasis on playing against the other players not the game. (i.e. Matt Throwers organic vs maths point)<BR/><BR/>Should have some of the following:<BR/><BR/>player elimination<BR/>longer length<BR/>plastic pieces<BR/>Sci Fi/Horror/Fantasy/War theme<BR/>buckets of dice<BR/>negotiation<BR/>opportunities for backstabbing/vengeance<BR/>Ways to kill the other guys dudes<BR/>Lots of choices<BR/><BR/>I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff. But thats enough for a pretty good understanding of a genre, especially when we keep in mind there will be borderline cases and hybrids.<BR/><BR/>I think its an interesting question: "Why do AT gamers like AT games?" What I've learnt from the last few days including Ken's why I love AT post after this is that we love:<BR/><BR/>Trash Talking<BR/>Grinding our friends and family beneath our iron thumb.<BR/>Betrayal<BR/>Vengeance<BR/>Also a nice story<BR/><BR/>At games allow us all that. I think, given our preferences, its not surprising that middle aged men with fanny packs find us threatening.Julianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10455803929426711742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-67472765441345709342007-04-13T09:36:00.000-07:002007-04-13T09:36:00.000-07:00Euros on the other hand are great for passive-agre...<I>Euros on the other hand are great for passive-agressive types that suffer Lack Of Self Esteem Reaction when you are in their base killing their dudes. </I><BR/><BR/>I always get the impression (based on online behavior) that the average Eurogamer is the sort of person who went home crying from middle school every day.<BR/><BR/>Nice comments anonymous- let us know who you are next time!Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-14551931550335518802007-04-13T07:35:00.000-07:002007-04-13T07:35:00.000-07:00Well I don't like to think of AT games as games fo...Well I don't like to think of AT games as games for people who don't want to think too hard. I want to think hard, out-play you, then eliminate you from the game and form an alliance with your girlfriend. <BR/><BR/>In my experience Euros have very short decision trees. It's usually obvious after 3 plays of a Euro what you should do every move throughout the game. Mostly that's because you are playing against the game, not the other players. Games that allow other players to kill the leader (i.e. direct conflict games) make you determine your strategy by what you think the other guy will do. That's much harder than the typical Euro multiplayer solitaire. The added freedom of interaction typical of AT games equals added depth, and that's why AT games last for decades while Euros have a shelf life of 2-3 plays.<BR/><BR/>I'm coming to the idea that AT can be defined as games enjoyed by AT gamers. AT players want to strike a blow or risk being smited. Euros on the other hand are great for passive-agressive types that suffer Lack Of Self Esteem Reaction when you are in their base killing their dudes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-13314330001194540492007-04-13T00:49:00.000-07:002007-04-13T00:49:00.000-07:00"Baby blow on my dice and we'll smite this M****rF...<I>"Baby blow on my dice and we'll smite this M****rF*****r": Hot.</I><BR/><BR/>I guarantee my interpretation of this is way more dirty than it was meant to be. <BR/>And if it wasn't someone needs to get a divorce and give me their number (no, I'm not referring to you Michael!)Mr Skeletorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641339798508135450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-4359005994550061132007-04-12T18:08:00.000-07:002007-04-12T18:08:00.000-07:00Billy Z Well might as well throw in my two cents w...Billy Z<BR/> <BR/>Well might as well throw in my two cents worth...<BR/> <BR/>I've been working as a croupier ( that's casino dealer --- it sounds only fancier) for the past five years now and my work experiance directly translates to this discussion.<BR/> <BR/>Hold on, let me explain: Gambling by it's very definion is risk management. It therefore follows that any player who recognises the said risk and plays accordingly will win more than he will lose in the long run. Just like any game involving a random element *cough* AT*cough*.<BR/> <BR/>I don't know how many of you have heard of card counting, so I'll give you a brief run down.<BR/> <BR/>Blackjack-- simple game right? Get as close to 21 without going over, house hits 16 stays on 17. Sometimes you double sometimes you can split. So you plop your money down and hope for the best, right?<BR/> <BR/>FUCK NO! YOU SAP! Blacjack, just like any game involving probability has patterns that can be assessed and (possibly) used to our advantage. To wit.<BR/> <BR/>Card counters assign values to cards example: A to 10=1, 7-8-9=0,and 2 to 6 =-1. the total gleaned by these values is called the running count-- which is more or less useless. What you need to get is a true count, that's where you take the running count and (get this) devide that by the number of decks that have been played played. Now that you have the true count value, you can cross index this to the basic strategy chart that tells you when to hit, stay, split, double, or insure your bet depending on what you have and what the dealer is showing. Add to this the fact that really good card counters go the extra mile and cross reference with a chart that tells you what percentage of your bankroll you should bet according to the current true count total. Now here's the kicker... THEY DO ALL OF THIS IN THEIR FUCKING HEAD!!! In a few seconds while speaking to their buds, hitting on some chick, or (more likely) while the pit boss is talking to them trying to fuck with their count.<BR/><BR/>What does this have to do with what we are talking about? Simple, " Random elements" do not a shitty game make, nor does it make the enthusiats of such games post-adolescent retards or whatever the fuck else we've been called on the geek. Learning to assess a games random patterns be it through skill or experiance is no easy task and it should not be belittled because of some personal bias.<BR/><BR/>I suck at chess. For the life of me I cannot develop the vision which allows me to see or memorise the most likely permutations involved in moving a pawn forward instead of a knight. being that as it is I generally know that by the tenth move or so I am fucked-- there is no way for me to get back into the game. Some people like that some people don't -- how the fuck an inferential link can be made between this and the validity of either a Euro or an AT game is beyond me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-91380409971875055512007-04-12T16:56:00.000-07:002007-04-12T16:56:00.000-07:00Although mathiness may be a common side-effect of ...Although mathiness may be a common side-effect of attempts at elegance, it is by no means an obligatory side effect. I can think of a couple of pure negotiation games, that are elegant, deep, but which strongly favor psychological manipulation skills over calculation. A prototypical example is "So Long Sucker" (which was invented by a nobel-prize-winning mathematician, strangely). It's a themeless, no-luck, perfect information game, the rules of which fit on one page. Nonetheless, minimaxers stand no chance against used car salesmen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-30452204115150603002007-04-12T15:47:00.000-07:002007-04-12T15:47:00.000-07:00You know, the first (and only) time I played Caylu...You know, the first (and only) time I played Caylus was at a convention - it was a five player game. The players: me and my buddy Kevin who were newbies, the guy who owned the game and had played a few times before, and two other newbies. I am mathematically inclined so as the experienced player explained the game it sounded interesting. Also I was psyched because it was #2 on BGG. As the game progressed, the owner asked a few times what we thought of the game thus far. I wasn't sure how to answer - I just said it was pretty interesting - and it was, but I felt overwhelmed with data and decisions. The owner and another player lamented something about the board being "fiddly" because you have to move some pieces around in a clumsy manner, or something. Apparently the 2nd edition improves on this problem. "It's a shame."<BR/><BR/>Another friend (John) pulled up a chair and watched the endgame. We added up our scores - I forget how this works but I believe there's a minute of tabulation. I finished in third, Kevin in fifth. As we walked out to find Kevin's wife, John commented, "That seemed...dry." I jumped to the defense of Euros and explained that they are more focused on planning and strategy as opposed to theme. A minute later I had to add, "...but I'm just not sure if I enjoyed that." Kevin agreed.<BR/><BR/>Other than those bits of chatter and the player rankings, I can hardly recall anything about the game session. I can't even remember the basics of the gameplay. After reading all this Ameritrash stuff, I now understand that clinical term for my affliction - none other than the dreaded cube confusion! :cry: You know, I can still remember playing a home-brewed arena combat game at the same convention 18 years ago - I rolled a 20 and shot Han Solo between the eyes, much to my delight, so I advanced to his color-coded level.<BR/><BR/>I think some Euros are GREAT - I brought Modern Art out at a family event and all had fun. T&E - love it. I appreciate a well-designed system, but pure math is just not fun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-32402613277748827232007-04-12T15:33:00.000-07:002007-04-12T15:33:00.000-07:00So,Are we allowed to say "mother-fucker" or"god-da...So,<BR/>Are we allowed to say <BR/>"mother-fucker" or<BR/>"god-damn-it" or <BR/>"son of a bitch"?????<BR/><BR/>Or does it have to be edited in some wierd, no vowels allowed kinda thing?<BR/>"m*th*rf*ck*r" or<BR/>"g*d-d*mn-*t" or <BR/>"s*n *f * b*tch"<BR/><BR/>(I chose not to capitalize god because there are many gods out there) ouchbrumeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11928532088571926519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-12398500081135968212007-04-12T15:24:00.000-07:002007-04-12T15:24:00.000-07:00Why can't you darned foreigners get it right? For ...Why can't you darned foreigners get it right? For the last time, THERE'S ONLY ONE MATH!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-25639983049246928992007-04-12T15:19:00.000-07:002007-04-12T15:19:00.000-07:00Even Euro lovers can enjoy AT games. When beaning ...Even Euro lovers can enjoy AT games. When beaning someone with a keenly tossed d6, an AT player might yell, "Bullseye, asshat!" A euro player would think: <I>But, soft! what die through yonder window breaks? It is the west, and Amer'Trash is the fun.</I>Jebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12958605197266890382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-2064606706791135432007-04-12T15:00:00.000-07:002007-04-12T15:00:00.000-07:00Is this it here? The one that says "Amoritizing m...Is this it here? The one that says "Amoritizing motherfucker" on it?Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-64244512045164811282007-04-12T13:51:00.000-07:002007-04-12T13:51:00.000-07:00That's Ok - you keep it. I have another one that c...That's Ok - you keep it. I have another one that came with my copy of "Joyful Non-confrontaional Building & Trading 2".<BR/><BR/>You will likely use it to count all of the casualties in your violent dice throwing melee's.<BR/><BR/>I did leave my fanny bag though - could you kindly pass it to me without a thowing motion?Pat Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200005894774999916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-79669027199407846402007-04-12T13:25:00.000-07:002007-04-12T13:25:00.000-07:00I'm a whiz at math, in fact I work with numbers at...I'm a whiz at math, in fact I work with numbers at work all day. When we play Euros at my local gaming store, I pretty much win or come close, even if it's the first time I've played.<BR/><BR/>At first I just thought they were letting me win, but then it clicked that I could figure the shit out quicker than those who were more experienced in the game.<BR/><BR/>I was bored to tears. Math = boring, it's not meant to be fun.<BR/><BR/>I yearn for playing a game where I can stand up, point and call someone a M***** F*****. Now that seems like fun. I want to go to bed that night and actually remember what I did the past 5 hours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-90015689847615914022007-04-12T11:29:00.000-07:002007-04-12T11:29:00.000-07:00Hey, is this your Members Only jacket? There's a ...Hey, is this your Members Only jacket? There's a calculator in the front pocket. Don't leave it behind or we'll throw it in a fire.<BR/><BR/>Wait- yep, written on the tag "Patrick H"Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-6739048534366760412007-04-12T11:22:00.000-07:002007-04-12T11:22:00.000-07:00You guys are hostile. Now I'm scared. I'll be pa...You guys are hostile. Now I'm scared. I'll be packing up my abacus, chalkboard and flowers and be leaving now.Pat Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200005894774999916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-42359950330332044962007-04-12T11:19:00.000-07:002007-04-12T11:19:00.000-07:00Swearing: essential. people may think it's childis...Swearing: essential. people may think it's childish and immature, especially when doing something so cultured as playing a game, but fuck em. The whole organic thing is spot on I think. It's all about having a new experience every time. Fury of Dracula is a real good example too as you can play Dracula in a load of different ways. This would seem to be the very opposite of the math exercises where you end up with the whole statistics thing. Boring! Gaming is about risks and management of those risks true, but sometimes you just gotta grow a pair and take a chance and go for it even when the "chances" of success are slim. Seems like this is the thing that the naysayers to this style of gaming are afraid of.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-87985881913766826292007-04-12T11:18:00.000-07:002007-04-12T11:18:00.000-07:00I think the debate boils down to where the fun com...I think the debate boils down to where the fun comes from. For some, the fun is in the bits. Little guys, the satisfying clack of dice, the name-calling and domination of opponents, etc. For others it's in the nuanced decision, the well-laid plans, the urge for perfection (however that gets defined). I see a lot of overlap in games like BattleLore, where the perfectionists can paint their little guys <I>just so</I>, and the other guys can move them around and blow shit up.<BR/><BR/>I admit a move away from "heavy" games though. I've read session reports about Die Macher and just wonder--who wants to play this? It's seems more like work, which I do all damn day.Jebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12958605197266890382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-41581191348763561942007-04-12T11:00:00.000-07:002007-04-12T11:00:00.000-07:00At our regular meetup (at a local university, my h...At our regular meetup (at a local university, my horde actually got moved down the hall since we're "experienced gamers". That actually means that we're incredibly foul mouthed, loud, and obnoxious.<BR/><BR/>Like Theranko, if you game with me, I'll probably say "M****rF*****r" a couple of times, and probably a "You G*d D****d Son of a B***h" too. [sic]Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-75597017612135070952007-04-12T10:32:00.000-07:002007-04-12T10:32:00.000-07:00You're killin' me, Ubarose.One of the first things...You're killin' me, Ubarose.<BR/><BR/>One of the first things I had to tell new game group members was that they should be ready to hear me use the word "M****rF*****r" [sic] every session.therankohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04807350235474473334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-77209440556199085522007-04-12T10:29:00.000-07:002007-04-12T10:29:00.000-07:00Ubarose: Total badass.Ubarose: Total badass.Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.com