tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post6445701762739341542..comments2023-11-03T02:44:56.790-07:00Comments on Fortress: Ameritrash: Roll PlayingMatt Throwerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04426055092986158446noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-90514496065633898502007-07-06T23:24:00.000-07:002007-07-06T23:24:00.000-07:00RPG/boardgame hybrids are probably my favorite sub...RPG/boardgame hybrids are probably my favorite sub-genre and dominate most of my meager collection. I've got Descent w/Well of Darkness, Prophecy, Arkham Horror and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I've also tried my hand at Dungeoneer, Fury of Dracula, Talisman and a simple dungeon crawl a friend has been play testing.<BR/><BR/>I tried to teach myself Magic Realm via Realm Speak but couldn't get the hang of it. I have yet to try Runebound and Return of the Heroes.<BR/><BR/>I like roll playing games (look at me being clever using the title of the post!) better than RPGs because I could never wrap my feeble 12-year-old brain (at the time! 26 now, brain is still feeble though) around the rules. I still have no clue what a THAQ is. And why is a negative armor class better? Shouldn't I want a really HIGH AC? More armor is more protection right? But I digress.<BR/><BR/>Despite the other's claims of lengthy roll playing games' manuals, 30 pages does not equal a 200 page beginners handbook. Throw in a DM guide, books for each class, armories and creature companions you've got a lot on your hands.<BR/><BR/>Plus as mentioned before, it takes a lot of work and time for someone to prepare a proper campaign. <BR/><BR/>Plus board games are great for laying out the situation with tiles and miniatures, instead of having to use my imagination which has been killed by years of TV.<BR/><BR/>So that's why I like board game/rpg hybrids. My favorites being Descent for its tacticality (new word!) and Arkham Horror for its cooperation and story telling.<BR/><BR/>Roll playing games boil my favorite parts about RPGs (character customization, combat) and add the tangible elements of lots of bits.<BR/><BR/>I really don't find them hard to introduce non-gamers too. Descent has been a gateway for plenty of my friends and even my sisters-in-law.<BR/><BR/>Another hybrid I think should deserve some discussion are miniatures/RPG hybrids. Necromunda and Blood Bowl are some of my all-time favs. I'm really itching to get back into Necromunda again, or try out Mordheim.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15474066412691436732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-34597277833534775182007-07-06T14:45:00.000-07:002007-07-06T14:45:00.000-07:00Ken B.,In truth, I've had great and terrible gamin...Ken B.,<BR/><BR/>In truth, I've had great and terrible gaming experiences with all kinds of formats of games:<BR/><BR/>Board games: Roaring board games where everybody is standing because they are excited and can't wait for their next turn, OR absolutely tedious times, waiting silently while everybody does their analysis.<BR/><BR/>CCGs: Thrilling moments where somebody plays a new and cool combo that they improvised on the spot, OR a recent game of Jyhad where a vicious rush deck left me unable to do anything at all after the first two turns of the game.<BR/><BR/>LARP: Dramatic moments when two thespians clash with great improvised speeches as their long-term machiavellian schemes finally stand revealed, OR dull mass combats where nobody can move for 90 minutes while overworked storytellers rush around supervising scissors-paper-rock.<BR/><BR/>RPG: Minds are blown when a startling plot twist is unveiled, or players improvise a surprising solution to a problem, OR yet another stereotypical dungeon crawl grinds to a halt thanks to a chorus of tired Monty Python quotes.<BR/><BR/>Despite having some amazing experiences with rpgs over the years, including some occasions when I ran the game, I burned out on rpgs after a 4-year L5R campaign ended in 2003. <BR/><BR/>It wasn't just that the fun factor was unreliable, it's that the overall ratio of fun wasn't worth it. For every hour of laughter or exciting combat scenes, there was too many long hours of tedious conversations. Haggling with NPC shopkeepers, or players debating the significance of a new clue, or players arguing with the ST about rules questions.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the prep, there are two general ways to approach running an rpg session... lots of prep or lots of improvisation. I got pretty good at the improvisation, but it's really hard to avoid a certain number of cliches, especially after the first two decades of running or playing in rpgs. The pre-made stuff varies in quality and is generally limited in quantity unless the name of the game is D&D. And I'm currently burned out on anything resembling Tolkien.<BR/><BR/>Sorry for rambling, I guess I've been bottling this up for a long time.Shellheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02023484901650550355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-2340815307448693522007-07-06T12:29:00.000-07:002007-07-06T12:29:00.000-07:00I've tried to hold my tongue on this so I don't of...I've tried to hold my tongue on this so I don't offend too many, but I'll be honest--as *games*, RPGs suck.<BR/><BR/>"But...but..." I hear some stammer. No. I've played them. I've played D&D. Earthdawn. Almost all the World of Darkness stuff. Shadowrun. Tales from the Floating Vagabond. Marvel Superheroes. <BR/><BR/>As hanging out with your buddy exercises, they're just fine. But like Shellhead stated (and in very excellent fashion)--there's always one person who has to put tons more effort into the experience AND they get the least amount of fun out of it. It wasn't just me; my friends always felt the same way. You ran the story as a courtesy so everyone else could play.<BR/><BR/>The goals were always nebulous, the rules moreso...you didn't want to kill your pals unless they did something stupid and deserved it, so essentially the whole thing is a hand-holding exercise.<BR/><BR/>And a big "Yes" to your next question--"But you just haven't played the 'real' way!" Yes. Yes I have. I've played pick-up RPG games at game stores and conventions before. Those always devolve into "one person is the dominant personality and calls all the shots" mixed with "intense rules lawyering."<BR/><BR/>As a game, they fail. As a social exercise with rules attached, rock on.<BR/><BR/><BR/>That's why we were pretty much glad when the CCG revolution steamrolled through and quashed RPGs. Hey, suddenly we could all put lots of work into our own customized deck, and then we could ALL play.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I don't expect boardgames to duplicate RPGs. In fact, I'd rather they didn't. If they get the veneer, the superficial feel, then I'm all for them and quite like them.<BR/><BR/>Runebound is the perfect example. It is an RPG, alright--in the superficial SNES kind of way. And I'm perfectly okay with that.<BR/><BR/>I don't care if I ever actually play an RPG ever again. But give me a board game with a few RPG trappings, I'm there. And so are like-minded gamers; every two weeks you've got your people posting somewhere on line: "Where can we find an RPG-style boardgame?" There's plenty of them already.<BR/><BR/>Trying to make them more RPG-esque really is missing the mark. Keep the superficial RPG elements, but clean up the underlying gameplay--BOOM, license to print money.Ken B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01621793460967739987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-5504112034921995102007-07-05T16:01:00.000-07:002007-07-05T16:01:00.000-07:00I have played Prophecy - it was certainly the 'clo...I have played Prophecy - it was certainly the 'closest' to talisman of all the adventure games I played, but I found it was also the most problematic. It's not bad, but I found both Runebound and Return of the Heroes better.Mr Skeletorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641339798508135450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-18634066318604852012007-07-05T10:47:00.000-07:002007-07-05T10:47:00.000-07:00Oh, and MAGIC REALM...Matt makes a great point, th...Oh, and MAGIC REALM...<BR/><BR/>Matt makes a great point, that bringing in RPG elements increases complexity and before you know it you've got an RPG handbook and certainly MAGIC REALM is guilty of those excesses. Yet, MAGIC REALM is in my estimation still the best "RPG on a board" because it really creates a world with its own peculiar functions, patterns, atmosphere, and even things like culture and politics. Yeah, it's ridiculously hard to learn how to play but when you get the hang of it, it's really an amazing piece of design full of detail and depth that _nothing_ in this genre can approach. The combat system, as detailed as it is, is just amazing- particularly if you like the level of finite detail that GUNSLINGER had. I think it's a brilliant game but I definitely understand that it's a tough one to get into...REALMSPEAK makes it a hell of a lot easier, but you'll still have to reference that legendary rulebook.Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-62993794536798374452007-07-05T09:15:00.000-07:002007-07-05T09:15:00.000-07:00PROPHECY...at first I thought it was pretty good, ...PROPHECY...at first I thought it was pretty good, but after playing it for almost a year I've realized that it's pretty _great_. It's much closer to TALISMAN than RotH or RUNEBOUND...but it's also a lot smoother, shorter, and strangely a little more thematic. The new Z-Man edition coming out in the Fall looks like it'll break the game to a new audience.<BR/><BR/>RETURN OF THE HEROES...I think the game has more in common with MERCHANT OF VENUS than D&D. I love it, but it is as much a pick-up-and-deliver game as it is an RPG-style board game. <BR/><BR/>I like RPG-style board games in general, although I do recognize that there's a boatload of particulars both subtle and overt that make RPGs a world apart from board games. I think where most games of this description fail is in not providing a fluid storytelling environment. Sure, in a DESCENT game there might be some kind of trivial story about killing a giant or whatever but it's really just a framing device to give a sense of purpose to a tactical board game. Hell, I usually forget what the story is during most games of DESCENT.<BR/><BR/>TALES OF THE ARABIAN NIGHTS, mentioned by Jack, is actually closer to a "real" RPG experience although your choices are on rails and the game master is replaced by a system of die roll matrices and a paragraph book. Yet all that adds up to something somehow more vibrant and narrative.Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-67804969705785421052007-07-05T08:55:00.000-07:002007-07-05T08:55:00.000-07:00Nice article. I may have to write another take on ...Nice article. I may have to write another take on the possbility of creating stories within board games. <BR/><BR/>As to games, Tales of the Arabian Nights, and Star Saga One are the only games which feel like RPG's to me. <BR/><BR/>And the Runebound and RoTH fans need to try Prophecy. I tell you, it is better than both. RoTH pick up and deliver and rule elegance combined with Runebound's variability. (RotH is actually kind of dry as those sorts of games go.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-58920990456126330072007-07-05T08:29:00.000-07:002007-07-05T08:29:00.000-07:00I'm surprised Battlestations wasn't mentioned.I'm surprised <A HREF="http://boardgamegeek.com/game/12350" REL="nofollow">Battlestations</A> wasn't mentioned.Adam Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01521437577131600103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-68412274391917247982007-07-05T07:57:00.000-07:002007-07-05T07:57:00.000-07:00In full agreement with Ubarose. RPG and Boardgames...In full agreement with Ubarose. RPG and Boardgames are different worlds, with overlapping themes and mechanics. But in the end, mechanics in RPG are hardly relevant. There are no victory conditions, there are only the limits placed on you by the character that you play.<BR/><BR/>If all you do is moving from lair to lair, beating up assorted monsters as you go, you are not roleplaying. That's just a dungeoncrawl with minimalist equipment. A game without a board. And in that case, you might just as wel play a boardgameJurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159781200263742361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-40343045756354845182007-07-05T07:38:00.000-07:002007-07-05T07:38:00.000-07:00You fudged the die rolls? Ever since I started pl...You fudged the die rolls? Ever since I started playing D&D I was incorporating miniatures and tiles into play. I always found that this worked better than playing hybrids. I don't like the narrow confines of the typical dungeon map - not enough wide open spaces to effectively allow for magic and missile tactics. It will be interesting to see FFG 's new expansion for Descent allowing for outdoor situations.Pat Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18200005894774999916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-31874549884863365772007-07-05T07:15:00.000-07:002007-07-05T07:15:00.000-07:00mr teufel: I think Vampire: Prince of the City mod...mr teufel: <I>I think Vampire: Prince of the City models a different form of role-playing very well.</I><BR/><BR/>True. Like the others we have been talking about, Prince of the City is game where each player controls a single character and has a simplified character sheet with a distinctive set of abilities. Unlike the other adventure games, Prince of the City has more abstract gameplay, to the point where the each player's movement token only symbolically represents where that character is and what he is doing. Instead of exploring a dungeon, characters are competing for control of a city.<BR/><BR/>I worked on a competing draft of Prince of the City which ultimately got bastardized into Vampire: Dark Influences. White Wolf made a very conscious decision to publish Prince of the City as a curious hybrid between a Euro-game and an rpg-lite introduction to Vampire: the Requiem. Even so, I like the version of Prince of the City that got published. The rest of my regular group is less impressed, so we haven't played PotC in more than a year.<BR/><BR/>The version that I worked on was almost a pure AmeriTrash game. Characters moved a lot more, traveling through the city to interact with other vampires, get equipment, and gain influence over mortal institutions like the media and the police. Hunting for blood was a bigger part of the game, and there was a tragedy-of-the-commons element involving the masquerade that eventually would lead to increasingly powerful vampire hunters getting sifted into the encounter deck.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, our version suffered from some of the standard AmeriTrash disadvantages: long games (3-4 hours) and complex rules with some fiddly exceptions for the sake of chrome. It might have been a hit with people at Fortress: AmeriTrash, but it would have gotten poor reviews at BGG. We playtested it with roughly two dozen players, and got very positive feedback. The White Wolf playtesters enjoyed it, too, but had already advanced some money to Mike Nudd.Shellheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02023484901650550355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-40457718751926563202007-07-05T02:21:00.000-07:002007-07-05T02:21:00.000-07:00Your article, and the comments following, tend to ...Your article, and the comments following, tend to focus on the D&D style of role-playing: ie the dungeon-bash. I think <I>Vampire: Prince of the City</I> models a different form of role-playing very well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-88049897278580837652007-07-05T00:01:00.000-07:002007-07-05T00:01:00.000-07:00Shellhead and Ubarose nicely sum up the answer to ...Shellhead and Ubarose nicely sum up the answer to the "why" question. I don't have the time (or the players) for RPGs any more, so a boardgame that plays in a few hours and has some RPG elements is as close as I'm going to get. That said, I've tried nearly all of those types of games and still feel like nothing has really hit the sweet spot. Not as an RPG substitute, but as a satisfying and rewarding adventure/strategy game in its own right.<BR/><BR/>My personal favorites would be <I>Warhammer Quest</I> in the dungeon crawl category (the biggest drawback of which is that it's practically a miniatures game), and <I>Tales of the Arabian Nights</I> in the adventure game category (still sadly out of print). The system employed in the latter, though somewhat fiddly in that involves looking up numbered paragraphs, really does encourage you to make decisions based more on your character than on any sort of perfect strategy. It's a pretty remarkable game in that regard.<BR/><BR/>I've been laboring away on my own pulp adventure boardgame, within which I'm trying to address some of the problems I have with the genre. So far it's been quite a challenge, but the playtesting feedback has been positive enough to keep me chipping away.Jason Luteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13523007086769409411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-85807361000125112082007-07-04T20:46:00.000-07:002007-07-04T20:46:00.000-07:00Interesting. It made me think. I guess I have neve...Interesting. It made me think. I guess I have never thought that adventure games or dungeon crawls were substitutes for role playing games. They are certainly an offshoot of RPGs and use some of the same mechanics and terms, but I don't know that they are failed attempts at simulating an RPG. They are just their own thing. <BR/>For me, adventure games are about story telling. Dungeon crawls are about tactics. RPGs are about play acting and improvising around someone's script outline. So I have never had that feeling of "Why play this instead of an RPG?" <BR/><BR/>I play adventure games because they are like those choose your own adventure books, but you do it with other people and there are several stories being told at once. You pick a card instead of turning to page 62. As shellhead said, it's reliable entertainment. <BR/> <BR/><BR/>Also, to me, RETURN OF THE HEROES has always felt like a pick up and deliver game wrapped in the trappings of an adventure game. I like pick up and deliver games too, so it's all good.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01990801735325411116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-14484758090498965002007-07-04T18:26:00.000-07:002007-07-04T18:26:00.000-07:00The other problem is that the Games Master role in...<I>The other problem is that the Games Master role in a board version of an RPG is significantly less interesting. Gone is the need to assess and pass judgement on the effects of the players actions, the fun of trying to role-play non-player characters in a memorable fashion, and the challenge of fudging the dice rolls in the interest of driving the narrative.</I><BR/><BR/>These are the reasons why I have no interest in role playing gamesMr Skeletorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17641339798508135450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-54192857765134089822007-07-04T18:03:00.000-07:002007-07-04T18:03:00.000-07:00I found it interesting that you state Return of th...I found it interesting that you state Return of the Heroes is... "eurogamey". I am about as much of a eurogamer as a person can be and I found it to be one of the most tedious and boring games I have ever played. This surprised me since the gameplay appears similar to Runebound, a game that my friends and I have had a lot of fun with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-21075140462235378872007-07-04T09:06:00.000-07:002007-07-04T09:06:00.000-07:00So far, every post on this topic today has posed t...So far, every post on this topic today has posed the same question, "Why not just play a role-playing game?" As a veteran of both a variety of role-playing games and "roll playing" boardgames, I think that I can answer this question.<BR/><BR/>Role-playing is a time-consuming and unreliable form of entertainment, and at least one participant must spend significantly more time and/or money to prepare for play than the rest of the group. Except for well-organized events at conventions with pre-made characters, a single role-playing session generally requires at least 5-6 hours. <BR/><BR/>Despite all preparation, the fun factor can still be missing from role-playing, because it only takes one bad player to mess things up. Or sometimes bad luck can derail the adventure, or willful players ignore obvious clues and go off on a boring tangent. Complex rules can ruin the atmosphere of play with jargon-loaded discussions, while simplistic rules may leave players frustrated, especially if the DM makes a lot of really arbitrary rulings to compensate. And there is often a mis-match between players and DMs, where one group may crave action while the adventure emphasizes mystery and intrigue.<BR/><BR/>But take the basic elements of an rpg into a boardgame format, and it can be more reliable entertainment. More structured play keeps things moving along, and the basic theme speaks to the type of play that the players can expect. There is still a sense of identification with your character, especially where the game allows you to improve your character or at least acquire additional equipment.<BR/><BR/>In particular, there is one genre which tends to work better as a boardgame than as an rpg: horror. Thanks to Dungeons & Dragons, most rpg'ers have an expectation of near immortality, with ready access to healing and resurrection magic. So when they find themselves playing a game like Call of Cthulhu, it is often an unpleasant shock at how quick and brutal combat can be, how easily investigators are dispatched by damage or by sanity loss. <BR/><BR/>But in horror-themed boardgames with a role-playing aspect, there is an excellent match between theme and play, at least in the games where player elimination is possible. This is why my group loves Arkham Horror and Betrayal at House on the Hill, but is not so much into Zombies!!! or Black Morn Manor.<BR/><BR/>There are some other horror board games that my group loves where it's still similar to role-playing, but a given player may be controlling multiple characters, at least until elimination reduces those numbers. The Hills Rise Wild, Slasher Flick: the Revenge of the Boogeyman, and the Vesuvius Incident. With excess characters, there is greater opportunity for death and mayhem, because player elimination can't happen until near the end when most of the characters are dead.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that the dungeon crawl games usually miss the mark. Descent is too long and not very fun. Mertwig's Maze is mostly fun, especially in the party vs party fights, but the dungeon aspect feels too flowchart-like.<BR/><BR/>However, there is a sci-fi dungeon crawl that I really like: Asteroid. One player sets up an asteroid riddled with tunnels and robots and danger, while the rest of the players control a group of characters who invade the base to destroy the evil and insane computer that controls the robots. The set-up time is a little long for the player running the robots, and the game in unbalanced in favor of the good guys, but it is otherwise a really fun game.Shellheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02023484901650550355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-16450089595597498532007-07-04T05:49:00.000-07:002007-07-04T05:49:00.000-07:00As an past RPG player myself, I have found none of...As an past RPG player myself, I have found none of those dungeon crawl boardgames really fit the experience of a true RPG. I think if you are trying to capture the experience of an RPG, why try, play an RPG. They are readily available.MWChapelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09901309293432210098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-37999406003574460352007-07-04T04:42:00.000-07:002007-07-04T04:42:00.000-07:00A fascinating article. I confess I am drawn to st...A fascinating article. I confess I am drawn to stand-alone adventure games, but am rarely satisfied by them because I end up asking, "Why play this instead of an RPG?" I am glad to see Return of the Heroes mentioned as it is a perfect example of an adventure game done right (and doesn't receive enough attention).Mr. Bistrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00082196063037194854noreply@blogger.com