tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post5904431220435725834..comments2023-11-03T02:44:56.790-07:00Comments on Fortress: Ameritrash: "Essen" Means "To Eat" in GermanMatt Throwerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04426055092986158446noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-90410367397300499782007-12-13T00:28:00.000-08:002007-12-13T00:28:00.000-08:00Well, as a demo monkey, I can safely say that this...Well, as a demo monkey, I can safely say that this "what are the classics" discussions are insular to the hobby gaming community. At Silicon, I met casual gamers who were still new to Munchkin and Apples to Apples (as well as Ingenious). Even at a local Eurogame club, some players haven't played Bohnanza or Arkham Horror yet. At FurtherConfusion, I'm going to demo FFG games, and need to have on hand some shorter games. Eurogames like Citadels and Colossal Arena should fit the bill, even if I've yet to win a game...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03165587327647601388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-6414645021990329922007-11-06T00:49:00.000-08:002007-11-06T00:49:00.000-08:00I think the fact people are still complaining abou...I think the fact people are still complaining about AGoT after all this time shows that it IS a classic. <BR/>Compare it to warcraft - that game has problems but no one talks about it anymore. I hear more about AGoT these days than even Marvel Heroes. <BR/><BR/>People complain about issues with the classics as well (titan downtime / player elimination anyone?) But that just shows that people are still playing it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06069275289476912112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-46063918141001908802007-11-05T14:14:00.000-08:002007-11-05T14:14:00.000-08:00Friend, I wasn't there so I'm just going by the re...Friend, I wasn't there so I'm just going by the reports...and I just don't see it. Most of the AT fare that was represented was already released elsewhere. <BR/><BR/>But still- assuming that you went and are giving us an eyewitness account- that's good news.Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-84108253540788109722007-11-05T12:53:00.000-08:002007-11-05T12:53:00.000-08:00Mr Barnes, your article totally misses the fact th...Mr Barnes, your article totally misses the fact that 50% of the hall space at Essen was AT - more fool you, then.Pawnstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138454253813433739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-18120162934958741512007-11-05T10:29:00.000-08:002007-11-05T10:29:00.000-08:00Well, pick a different example then, as the larger...Well, pick a different example then, as the larger point remains.<BR/><BR/>But re: AGOT, maybe I'm wrong, but with classics you can only tell many years later. I just think it has too much baggage already[1], so I'll be surprised if it, rather than its descendants, are what we talk about and play years from now.<BR/><BR/>[1] There was the early errata, the ports issue, the Westeros deck issues (which ensured that some games were simply...not fun), the fact that the board state doesn't vary much (either in game or from game to game), then people began to grok that what appeared to be a strategy game incorporating <B>d</B>iplomacy was in fact just <B>D</B>iplomacy writ messy. I also wonder if any two groups play it the same way at all. The variants here feel much more like attempts to get the game to work, rather than enhancements of a reliably enjoyable base experience (a la Settlers).<BR/><BR/>And BTW, I like AGOT, and think it has many great ideas. I just don't think it works quite right out of the box, which isn't something I'd expect of a classic.jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12368292113837561106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-7224195561745484412007-11-05T08:19:00.001-08:002007-11-05T08:19:00.001-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ken B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01621793460967739987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-28707549049366098772007-11-05T08:19:00.000-08:002007-11-05T08:19:00.000-08:00The luster has faded from AGoT? Really? That's n...The luster has faded from AGoT? Really? That's news to me. People still cite it as a great design. There's a lot of awesome stuff going on in that system. It will still be talked about in another five years' time.<BR/><BR/>Even if Starcraft "outdates" it (unlikely, as the theme, scale, and scope are radically different), it will still be cited as an influential design.Ken B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01621793460967739987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-26232599195457233502007-11-05T07:44:00.000-08:002007-11-05T07:44:00.000-08:00Michael, I think we may be in violent agreement, o...Michael, I think we may be in violent agreement, or aren't understanding each other. I'm just saying that the iteration time and the baseline quality both feel much faster and tighter than in the 80s and even 90s. I only see those trends accelerating. True differentiation is more difficult than ever.<BR/><BR/>And I absolutely agree it's contextual; it's central to my original post. Imagine if AGOT--an iconic Petersen game, with great ideas and iffy execution--came out in 1981. People would have raved, made alternate maps utilizing the system, etc. Now? Its lustre has already faded, and Starcraft looks poised to deliver the death blow.<BR/><BR/>I'm not at all suggesting that there aren't a few classics on the lists presented here. But they can't all be classics, can they?jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12368292113837561106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-84449549996938537882007-11-02T14:26:00.000-07:002007-11-02T14:26:00.000-07:00Struggle of Empires is a definite. Shogun seems a ...Struggle of Empires is a definite. <BR/><BR/>Shogun seems a little bit flawed compared to Wallenstein. <BR/>That big, long map seems just bound and determined to screw the people in the middle. <BR/><BR/>And I'd put Game of Thrones over both of those. It feels more like a completed game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-64426598226959992202007-11-02T12:35:00.000-07:002007-11-02T12:35:00.000-07:00Michael, maybe you don't view game design as evolu...<I>Michael, maybe you don't view game design as evolutionary;</I><BR/><BR/>Oh no, I absolutely agree that game design is evolutionary. It has to be. It's why games can offer richer, more varied experiences now than they really ever have. <BR/><BR/>STARCRAFT is a good example...it's a pretty daring piece of design and I'd almost say that it's fairly cutting edge. It really zeroes in on what works in AT games as well as Euros and it feels like something totally new. I think the design kind of pushes it a little too hard in places but it's not hard for anyone with any gaming experience to see it as the product of an evolutionary trend in design thinking. Even if you only go as far back as GAME OF THRONES, TI3, and WARRIOR KNIGHTS you can see how ideas there evolved into a more tuned, honed iteration in STARCRAFT while it has scrappy, kind of roughly drawn ideas in other parts that will eventually produce further evolutionary strands. The way the technology interacts with the card combat mechanic is brilliant and I think that's the main thing we'll see turn up elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>But like Shryke says, evolution in creative mediums doesn't necessarily foreclose on the value and quality of past examples. I think that now, with accessibility and availability at such a high level and growing in all creative fields we're seeing that currency isn't necessarily a barometer of value any more. People are listening to more older music, seeing older movies, and reading older books as part of an expanded menu of options provided by information age technology and zeitgeist. So we've got people that are going back to these older games that they may have never even realized existed and saying "Hey, MUTANT CHRONICLES really is a lot like DESCENT!"<BR/><BR/>A lot of it is contextual...even with SETTLERS, it's a different experience for someone to play it now than it was 10 years ago. Back then, it was like the entire gaming slate was wiped clean...these days people say "Hmm...maybe if I played it before PUERTO RICO..."Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-14955398179455178542007-11-02T12:29:00.000-07:002007-11-02T12:29:00.000-07:00Chapel cheated...he listed games that are, for bet...<I>Chapel cheated...he listed games that are, for better or worse, classics. He didn't say he'd be playing CASH A CATCH, AUGSBURG 1620, or ZOOLORETTO 20 years from now. Remember last year when everybody was babbling about how great TO CROWN A KING was? Who the fuck is playing that shit now? LOUIS XIV, where are you?</I><BR/><BR/>That's because no one is taking my advice! ;) I didn't label any of those games classics, or would I. It takes time to see which ones will become "classics". I'll tell you what though, there are an army of games that we thought were bad ass in 1990 that we downright wouldn't play today.<BR/><BR/>Games that I think will be new classics:<BR/><BR/>Through the Ages<BR/>Power Grid<BR/>Imperial<BR/>Struggle of Empires<BR/>Shogun<BR/>Age of Steam<BR/>Puerto Rico<BR/><BR/>Yes, I can see me playing those in 10 years, just as much as El Grande. Or course I cannot prove that until the year 2012, when I stating that I'm still playing them after 10 years, just like I'm still playing Settlers after 20! Or that I'm still playing Titan/Dune after 30 years.<BR/><BR/>But I think you are looking at the overall mass barrage of games, instead of the small subset of real classics in the making. I have a ton of old games that don't come near to the list of "classics" you list.MWChapelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09901309293432210098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-49533592172669017142007-11-02T11:55:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:55:00.000-07:00Game Design is evolutionary the same way music or ...Game Design is evolutionary the same way music or writing is. Sure, it gets more complex and/or more refined and we learn from the past and such. But the older stuff is still just as good in many cases. Hell, most of the time it's got a better gem:crap ratio, since the crap has had years to fall by the wayside and be forgotten.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-77773772827342490162007-11-02T11:45:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:45:00.000-07:00Michael, maybe you don't view game design as evolu...Michael, maybe you don't view game design as evolutionary; I do. The bar continually gets raised, and the pace accelerates. I think if you accept that premise, the rest follows.jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12368292113837561106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-46481215633425903672007-11-02T11:13:00.000-07:002007-11-02T11:13:00.000-07:00I'm done buying games for a long time...I have too...I'm done buying games for a long time...I have too many games that I haven't yet thoroughly played. I may buy 2 or 3 per year just to keep things fresh, but no need to go crazy anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-38044521286564611542007-11-02T10:58:00.000-07:002007-11-02T10:58:00.000-07:00What happened to the friendly, intimate atmosphere...What happened to the friendly, intimate atmosphere we used to enjoy here? All this venom, bad language, and unhelpful attitudes! Holy jump-a-mum-mum!Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-51884591228372021532007-11-02T10:54:00.000-07:002007-11-02T10:54:00.000-07:00Thank you Ken. I will be adding Fanny Bandit to my...<I>Thank you Ken. I will be adding Fanny Bandit to my repertoire. </I><BR/><BR/>There goes Ken again with his ass fetish. Scrotum sucking necrophiliac was pretty funny though. Good Work there Shryke...StephenAveryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12443764334663921706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-40108177506235014522007-11-02T09:31:00.000-07:002007-11-02T09:31:00.000-07:00Chapel cheated...he listed games that are, for bet...<I>Chapel cheated...he listed games that are, for better or worse, classics. He didn't say he'd be playing CASH A CATCH, AUGSBURG 1620, or ZOOLORETTO 20 years from now. Remember last year when everybody was babbling about how great TO CROWN A KING was? Who the fuck is playing that shit now? LOUIS XIV, where are you?</I><BR/><BR/>It takes time to work out which games are the true classics, and which are not. The immortal classics of the Euro genre will be: <BR/><BR/>- the pristine, flawless Knizia designs (THROUGH THE DESERT, RA, MODERN ART, and -- in a more just world -- QUO VADIS?), and<BR/><BR/>- the designs that were versatile enough to develop into immersive -- or at least expansive -- gaming worlds (CATAN, which is a perfect design to boot, and CARCASSONNE, which is imperfect, and still needs to have a backstory invented for it).<BR/><BR/>I think that ZOOLORETTO could still become an enduring classic, but only if it's expanded in interesting directions, and some sort of narrative is built into it. I claim that the design is sufficiently versatile that these things could happen, but they probably won't.Juniperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05905667009014233372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-18597452095787449892007-11-02T09:23:00.000-07:002007-11-02T09:23:00.000-07:00It do, Ken, it do. I played it last night and so ...It do, Ken, it do. I played it last night and so far so good. It may be a little over-designed but there's a lot to like. Anybody who rates this game or reviews it after only one play is automatically full of shit- for one thing, it's a pretty unique system and for another there's a lot going on that is going to take a few games to really grasp. I've done a six player game and a two player game and I still don't feel like I have a handle on how to play well. It'll be a Gameshark review in the next couple of weeks.<BR/><BR/>BUT A WARNING- the first box I opened had a GROSSLY screwed up figure mix- like over half were wrong. But FFG has great replacement service, so don't let that deter you from picking up a great game. There are _NOT_ widespread reports, but there was at least one post at the FFG forum where someone had the same problem I did. Maybe a very isolated problem, but nothing to sqwak about. Just be aware that it's happened and make sure you account for the figures.<BR/><BR/>On Jon's comments about market dilution and the supposed decline in touchstone games- I completely disagree. There's plenty of games from the 80s that have been pretty much forgotten. There were plenty of games available then, but twenty years on the best of them have stuck around and the rest have dropped away. The same thing will happen twenty years from now- highly replayable and thematic games will still be around and all these flash-in-the-pan fad Euros will be long gone. The better Euros will still be with us, but the natural culling process will sort out what has longevity and what doesn't. <BR/><BR/>I don't think it's a function of marketplace variety at all. If there's five games available, then later on ten, out of those fifteen games the best out of those groups will still later on when there's twenty and so on.<BR/><BR/>Of course, what "best" means is up to you.Michael Barneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465993224831900150noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-71722253306565718512007-11-02T09:03:00.000-07:002007-11-02T09:03:00.000-07:00Thank you Ken. I will be adding Fanny Bandit to my...Thank you Ken. I will be adding Fanny Bandit to my repertoire.<BR/><BR/>RE: TI3 vs SS<BR/><BR/>I see where your coming from. I think it comes down to what you want in a game. TI3 is NOT a Galactic Conquest game. At least, not a Military Galactic Conquest game. There's many avenues to extends your influence that don't include blow other people up and then crushing their corpses beneath your feet on your inevitable march to victory. It's what the game intends.<BR/><BR/>One is a game of Military Conquest, the other is a game of Imperial Dominance that includes military conquest. Different intents and all that.<BR/><BR/>I'd say StarCraft is a far better comparison, as it's a game purely about driving your enemies before you and hearing the lamentations of their women.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-13971766884115368382007-11-02T08:54:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:54:00.000-07:00And Starcraft do look good, don't it?And Starcraft do look good, don't it?Ken B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01621793460967739987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-35885024944301765572007-11-02T08:53:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:53:00.000-07:00Shryke, you're a cock-gobbling fanny bandit.Better...Shryke, you're a cock-gobbling fanny bandit.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Better?<BR/><BR/><BR/>We won't shout you down, but that doesn't mean we can't give you mounds of shit over your favorite games.Ken B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01621793460967739987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-45641252036280651032007-11-02T08:41:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:41:00.000-07:00oh wait, that's "I'd like to report a concern".Sam...oh wait, that's "I'd like to report a concern".<BR/><BR/>Samurai Swords is mulitplayer, plastic army, battle royal at it's finest. <BR/><BR/>TI3 does do more than Samurai Swords- TOO MUCH MORE. In short, what I think is wrong with TI3 is that it tries to hard to do EVERYTHING and ends up not doing anything as well as it should. A game of galactic conquest should primarily be about conquest. When I win Samurai Swords, I know what that means- I have laid waste to my enemies and claimed the title of Shogun. When I win TI3, what does that mean? That I have 10 victory points. Well what does that symbolize? Nothing. They're just victory points. I could be almost wiped off the board, but because some law got passed or I researched some new technology (researched it! I don't even have to use my new- just having it can score me points) I get another VP and I win. TI3 tried to hard to be a cross over hit with people whose favorite games are Peurto Rico and Caylus and ended up selling it's ameritrash soul for some role selection and victory points.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-21635761815006980312007-11-02T08:37:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:37:00.000-07:00I am still quite fond of To Crown a King, and it i...I am still quite fond of To Crown a King, and it is one of the games that frequently returns to my game bag. <BR/><BR/>It really wants the expansion. <BR/><BR/>Tom Lehmann is such an odd designer, because he's an RPG geek who designed purely AT games (Age of Exploration, Fast Food Franchise, and Mystic War) but jumped into pure Euros (Pizarro & Co. Feh.) <BR/><BR/>Race is still mostly Euro, but has a bit of agression and lots of chrome rules that make it kind of AT-ish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-44782137199832341902007-11-02T08:35:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:35:00.000-07:00Personal attack! Personal attack!Personal attack! Personal attack!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8811769968708731746.post-57119714978036513742007-11-02T08:27:00.000-07:002007-11-02T08:27:00.000-07:00But that's what makes F:AT great, man. No one is g...<I>But that's what makes F:AT great, man. No one is going to shout you down for loving one AT game over another.</I><BR/><BR/>What?<BR/><BR/>Have you guys turned into fanny pack wearing, royalty impressing pussies while I've been gone?<BR/><BR/>Dan Daly, your opinion that SS is better then TI3 is wrong, and your stupid for thinking so. Also, your mother was a whore. <BR/><BR/>PS - Your a scrotum-sucking necrophiliac.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com